#debconf-team.log

@Sledge POINT ONE stockholm i would support sleges moderation Sledge priorities Sledge one at a time, PLEASE stockholm (what about those in the checklist, that we agreed on?) Sledge what precisely are the priorities that we should be using in deciding? Sledge stockholm: good point vedran_sjj I basically agree with bdales priority list * h01ger really thinks about following his proposal about +m and voice for the team and local leaders.. Sledge has everybody ready bdale's list? Maulkin ** minutes Sledge asks for priorities that we should be using in deciding the location for debconf. slef Where's bdale's list? Sledge h01ger: please go ahead and do that Maulkin slef: On the -team mailing list slef h01ger-- * h01ger explains to the others that Maulkin just toke a note for the minutes marga http://lists.debconf.org/lurker/message/20060705.181923.927c1bfa.en.html * GyrosGeier opens #debconf-team-discuss * h01ger is happy about GyrosGeier and does as planned Jon_uk marga: thanks marga I think Bdale's priorities are quite alright. @Sledge any objections to any of those items? +moray I haven't thought deeply about the ordering, but I felt I agreed with bdale's list when I read it @Sledge anythings that should be added? +stockholm the priorities are in a differnet form at http://wiki.debian.org/DebConfLocationCheckListhttp://wiki.debian.org/DebConfLocationCheckList +stockholm sorry, bad paste * h01ger wonders who else +stockholm http://wiki.debian.org/DebConfLocationCheckList +stockholm font size indicates the importance +marga I think it lacks something about accessibility, but the rest really seems to reflect my thoughts... Although I'd probably go with a different order. @h01ger vedran_sjj asked me to give him voice in case sapphire_sjj has connectifity probs +marga <slef> there's nothing about orga on that list, whereas it seems the problems debconf has worst today are orga +bdale h01ger: Sledge should have voice? @h01ger sorry Sledge, i thought i gave it to you first +Sledge h01ger: fine +Sledge marga: do you mean central orga, or local orga? +marga It was slef, but I think he means local. +bdale marga: when I wrote that email, I was trying to "stay above" what I knew of the issues in the orga team, and I certainly don't know all of the issues in the team regardless * h01ger didnt see Tolimar coming back +Sledge marga: ah, ok +Sledge ok, that's a fair enough addition +marga So, having a strong, mature, experienced local team is a priority. An important one. +bdale I easily agree with that +Sledge ok, where does it fit in the list? +bdale I'd place it after affordable and the trappings of a good working environment, but ahead of almost everything else +Sledge that matches my own idea; anybody else? @gwolf Ok, so we go back to the beginning :-/ Sorry, I cannot skip the point that I'm angry - we are going over the same points over and over! * Maulkin agrees @Ganneff yes. its useless @gwolf Ordering again the priorities is useless. +Maulkin (with bdale's point) @gwolf We have went over them a hundred times. @Ganneff thats what you get when you let those people run it. +marga Ok. Priorities done. +marga Let's move on. +stockholm Ganneff: dont do this, it does not help currently +Sledge ok, it seems we're happy enough with the ordering +Sledge which makes the priorities: @h01ger the meeting ordering ? +Sledge "affordable" for both sponsors and attendees +Sledge good working spaces +Sledge strong, mature, experienced local team +Sledge excellant network connectivity +Sledge quality and quantity of food and drink in close proximity +Sledge suitabile housing in close proximity +Sledge presentation facilities +Sledge travel logistics +Sledge does that work for people? +stockholm i would move up the local team, actuallz. +Sledge stockholm: to which position? +marga accesibility is soft of missing, although it's more like a general thing. +bdale stockholm: still after affordable, or before? +stockholm 2nd * h01ger thinks the whole debconf-orga-lead topic should be moved up. or at least be present. maybe its good to have it in the end, or maybe not +Maulkin marga: I think that can be derived from the otehr items :) +bdale marga: at least in my part of the world, it is mostly taken as a given part of the context. but I am certainly perfectly ok with it being an explicit priority. * h01ger thinks bith venues are sufficiently accessible. Ganneff, otavio (is not here..) ? @gwolf bdale: This time we failed in that regard because it was not such a given :) +Sledge ok, let's add accessibility to make it clear +bdale marga: however, in practical terms, it doesn't look like accessibility is a significant differentiator between the two proposals for dc7 +bdale gwolf: good point @Ganneff h01ger: SJJ has advantages +marga bdale: no, I know. @Ganneff h01ger: but EDI also, depends where you look @Ganneff both are good +Sledge accessibility priority level? @h01ger Ganneff, ok. but do we need this as a topic? @gwolf they are quite leveled, so.. :) @Ganneff no. @Ganneff both are fine vor debconf. @h01ger good +stockholm i would give it level 7 or so +stockholm but in this caes it does not matter +bdale Sledge: it seems like the important thing is for it to be on the list so it isn't forgotten, not so much where it is on the list +Sledge ok, let's just add it to the list @h01ger is this thetopic list or the priorities? +Maulkin Does this need quickly wiki-ing? @h01ger Maulkin, please do create a topic wiki page +Maulkin kk +bdale h01ger: the priorities. I think the /topic is fine +Sledge list by my reckoning is now: +Sledge "affordable" for both sponsors and attendees +Sledge strong, mature, experienced local team +Sledge good working spaces +Sledge excellant network connectivity +Sledge quality and quantity of food and drink in close proximity +Sledge suitabile housing in close proximity +Sledge presentation facilities +Sledge travel logistics +Sledge accessibility +Sledge anything more/less? @h01ger bdale, the topics of this meeting i ment. not the /topic :) @h01ger so this is priorities? +stockholm what about continuity? +stockholm i think it is important for a complex thing like debconf +Sledge stockholm: is that actually a separate priority, or just part of the background organisation? +Tolimar stockholm: what do you mean by "continuity"? (I know what the word means, but in this context of venue decission I don't understand what you mean.) +stockholm Sledge: i think it should be considered +stockholm Tolimar: if you change too many factors at once in a conplex system you certainly have a uncontroled state. +marga stockholm: I think we are stating the priorities about choosing a location, not about what the team has to do better. +Tolimar stockholm: Ah, okay. Thanks. +stockholm Tolimar: continuity means that it location is not radically different to everthing before, which invalidates what we know how a debconf works +Maulkin http://wiki.debian.org/DebConfPriorityList +aj (so, apparently it took me 1h30 to realise that alarm meant "wake up"... 4:30am meetings are teh suck) +bdale stockholm: hrm. we've had some pretty large differences in the venues to date, though, haven't we? * h01ger waves to aj - good morning :) +bdale aj: caffeine is good +Maulkin ** minutes a list of priorites exists at http://wiki.debian.org/DebConfPriorityList @h01ger aj, we have a list of priorities for choosing the venue, but no real agenda for this meeting. +moray can we pause a couple of minutes for aj to read scrollback and chime in? +stockholm bdale: actually they were similar to some degree. @gwolf aj: All my respect for coming out of bed that early :) * h01ger says yes to moray @h01ger pause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well @h01ger pause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well @h01ger pause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well @h01ger pause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well @h01ger pause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well @h01ger pause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well +bdale stockholm: true enough +Maulkin ** minutes - general - both venues seem approx equal in accessability fronts, it: both acceptable. @h01ger pause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well @h01ger pause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well @h01ger pause til 19:20 utc - so we can all calm down and think as well @h01ger nuff said? +marga Pause, but could we please be told what's going to follow, please? @h01ger or do i need to take voices away? :) @h01ger marga, discussing the agenda of this meeting?! +stockholm will aj beep once he is done? @h01ger 19:20 is bit enough? @h01ger beep even +aj beep? +stockholm visual bell. +aj xxx ? +moray aj: do you have anything to say about your intentions for this meeting, etc., before it re-starts? +marga So, the next step is compare the venues according to the priority list? @h01ger .oO( oh well... me thinks other people might be afk, but... it started already ) * h01ger is ok with it +marga h01ger: I'm just asking. @h01ger marga, np @h01ger aj, please let us come up with an agenda first +aj okay, so we still have UK and SJJ people around right? +Maulkin aj: Yes +sapphire_sjj yes +aj i see moray (but no moray_uk...) +vedran_sjj yes @h01ger aj, so two topics like in your mail or what? +aj so, what i thought (back when i was last awake...) would be interesting, would be seeing what the SJJ thought EDI's strenghts were (the areas in whcih they'd have the most problems matching or beating) that matter for debian, and vice-versa; and seeing what SJJ and EDI thought there own weaknesses were? +bdale oops, f'ing mouse +Maulkin :) +Sledge bdale: doh! :-) +vedran_sjj ok should I go? @h01ger aj, agenda first. otherwise... its stupid * h01ger really really wants clearness on the agenda * h01ger really really wants clearness on the agenda +aj moray, sapphire_sjj: are you happy to do that in a few minutes? +sapphire_sjj aj, vedran_sjj will be our speaker +stockholm will there be a "native speaker" bonus? +Sledge sapphire_sjj: ok, cool @h01ger aj, if you take over, please say so, dont just do it :( * h01ger shuts up +aj sapphire_sjj: oh, okay, thanks +aj vedran_sjj, moray: are you happy to do that in a few minutes? +Maulkin ** minutes <+aj> so, what i thought (back when i was last awake...) would be interesting, would be seeing what the SJJ thought EDI's strenghts were (the areas in whcih they'd have the most problems matching or beating) that matter for debian, and vice-versa; and seeing what SJJ and EDI thought there own weaknesses were? +Maulkin ** minutes vedran_sjj and moray representing +stockholm why is this better then comparing according priorities? +marga I think it might be interesting, but are we doing the comparison against priorities or not? @gwolf because it takes longer and gets us back to the same points again? +aj sigh +bdale if the two teams are willing and are honest about it, we could learn something about each proposal +stockholm aj: i believe there might be good reasons. i just dont see them yet * h01ger wanted to suggest stockholm and gwolf to follow the agenda. so i think i will tell aj again to first discuss the agenda of this meeting and the procedure :) (so we then can make offtopic people quiet ;) +stockholm aj: if you tell us how you imagine how this can work out well this way we might see the advantage +aj sorry, i need to know if moray/someone from EDI's willing to do the above +moray aj: yes, I was waiting for the interruption to be over +aj thanks +stockholm who is chair now? * Sledge will continue on +stockholm thanks +Sledge agenda item 3 - teams compare their bids * h01ger thinks we either go with the agenda from ajs mail or the one we started here while he was asleep. chairs please go. i dont chair anymore +Sledge point out strengths of the opposing bid, and weaknesses in their own +Sledge s/item 2/item 3/, sorry +Sledge s/item 3/item 2/, sorry * Sledge screams at his poor faiing fingers +aj f4f18f855ac7240b5e4ebb7c5771e8e74f563682; Sledge: heads or tails? +stockholm (c: +Sledge heads +aj echo 'heads = sarajevo goes first' | sha1sum +Sledge later items: +Sledge _limited_ questions for the 2 teams +Sledge (item 3) +vedran_sjj ok I'd like to do EDI's strengths and SJJ weakness at the same time +vedran_sjj is it ok? +aj sounds fair; moray? +moray I'm not sure what the question is precisely, but seems fine +Sledge item 4: weigh up bids against priorities +Sledge item 5: ***decision*** +Sledge people happy with that agenda? @Ganneff ... +sapphire_sjj yes\ +aj vedran_sjj: okay, 5m on strengths; 5m on weaknesses once sledge says okay; then same for edi team (in reverse), then we'll move on to clarifications from everyone @h01ger Sledge, aj: thats it? no orga-team topic? * Maulkin suggests 4a: comments from orga-team @h01ger (sorry for reacting so late) +Maulkin Fairly stongly. +aj vedran_sjj: the aim at this point is for you guys to demonstrate you know what you're talking about and are able to analyse your own problems as well as just advocate for your bid +Maulkin *strongly +Sledge Maulkin: yup, add that +Maulkin This need wiki-ing? +Sledge please +Sledge anything else for agenda? +aj clarifications from everyone includes from the orga team @h01ger Sledge, yes. see above. orgateam/delegates @h01ger this somewhat is crashed atm @h01ger this=team * h01ger is sorry to be honest. no, i'm not :) +Sledge others: do we want to discuss orga-team in this meeting? +stockholm h01ger: i dont follow? +stockholm h01ger: can you explain? @gwolf stockholm: We are in a crisis moment for the team @h01ger stockholm, see gwolf. @gwolf And that's something quite objective :) +stockholm ah +marga Please, guys, this is off-topic right now. vedran_sjj I hope you are preparing your statement. +vedran_sjj yes i'm ready @h01ger marga, no. Tolimar has left :( you just want to continue?? +Sledge h01ger: sorry, unless somebody else agrees with you we'll leave that discussion until later +marga h01ger: not really, but I don't want to discuss this right now. @h01ger (to give one example why i think this is important as well. happily after the venue decision...) +Sledge h01ger: ok, cool +Sledge vedran_sjj: ready to go? +marga vedran_sjj: ok, please go ahead? @h01ger Sledge, but put it on the agenda! +Maulkin Agenda at http://wiki.debian.org/DebConf7Meetings +vedran_sjj ok +Sledge h01ger: ok, 6: orga team discussion +Sledge vedran_sjj: 5 minutes +vedran_sjj 1. SJJ has no budget flights... while EDI has a lot of budget flights +vedran_sjj obviously this presents a problem for non-sponsored atendees +vedran_sjj making it more expensive and complicated to visit SJJ * h01ger missed the topic orgateam in the agenda and just added it +vedran_sjj (as I said earlier, I'm doing strengths/weaknesses at the same time) +vedran_sjj (cause I don't want to just repeat the same stuff...) +vedran_sjj we spent a lot of energy finding a solution to this problem +vedran_sjj we can make it smaller, but now dissapear completely +aj just problems, we don't need solutions too :) +vedran_sjj I say non-sponsored, because sponsorship is in the spreadsheet +vedran_sjj 2. EDI has a well-known debian community +vedran_sjj they have several DDs on their team +vedran_sjj while our team is a strong general Linux community but less involved with Debian +vedran_sjj though I see this as an opportunity to convert this community to Debian :) +vedran_sjj some may disagree... +vedran_sjj 3. SJJ might be less interesting to corporate sponsorship +aj (converting the community to debian would be a strength of the bid, don't cheat :) +vedran_sjj ok sorry +vedran_sjj we had that problem (no 3) when talking about another prospective FOSS conference +aj (half time) +vedran_sjj 4. and I'd like to add (some from my team disagree strongly...) the cultural issues +Sledge ok +Sledge by my account that's 5 minutes +vedran_sjj I understand some DC attendees might have issues with SJJ +Sledge vedran_sjj: please finish 4. +Sledge then we move on +vedran_sjj -- as I said I'm doing both at the same time +aj (5m for weaknesses SJJ, 5m for strengths EDI = 10m all up) +vedran_sjj can't we join the two half-times? +Sledge crap, sorry * Sledge hits himself +vedran_sjj as I would basically be repeating myself +aj which cultural issues do you see still being a problem for sjj potentially? +vedran_sjj point 4: +vedran_sjj this is really very subjective +vedran_sjj we tried to remove such issues (even have a wiki on that) +vedran_sjj but I think some people will just never change their opinion no matter what we do +vedran_sjj the issue is prejudice and not the actual state +vedran_sjj of things +aj okay, next one? +vedran_sjj to repeat EDIs strenghts: EDI airport, more attractive to sponsors etc. +vedran_sjj well thats it, we'll be open for questions if needed +aj okay +Sledge swap to EDI? +vedran_sjj you can swap, I'm finished +aj since there's a minute left; would you go to EDI if they had dc7 and you could? +vedran_sjj yes why not +vedran_sjj i would go +vedran_sjj nothing else :) +bdale aj: am I correct that you'd like us to hold comments until after EDI's turn? +Maulkin ** minutes see above for sjj positives/negatives bit. +Sledge bdale: correct +Sledge let's move on to EDI +aj bdale: yes; we'll let both teams bullet point any additional strengths they think they have then +Sledge moray: are you ready? * bdale agrees +moray Sledge: you want me to start on Sarajevo strengths? +Sledge yes please +aj weaknesses for edi, strengths for sjj; either order +Sledge moray: 10 mins, go! +moray I think the main advantage for Sarajevo over Edinburgh is that it's a cheaper city for food/accommodation +moray i.e. either of the same quality is definitely cheaper in Sarajevo than Edinburgh +moray (2) The Bosnians hope that they'll create some more interest in free software by having the conference there +moray (3) It's probably a more 'exotic' location (a lot of people seem to find the UK a boring idea ;) +moray (4) I know that a lot of people prefer the 'self-contained' venue they're proposing +moray ok, can I go on our weaknesses? +aj go ahead +moray right +moray weaknesses: +moray (1) We're competing with a lot of other events in Edinburgh to get venues/accommodation, especially since we're proposing a venue right in the middle of the city +moray The obviously drives up prices for facilities, and it also means things need to be booked early +moray (3) Edinburgh is a more expensive city than Sarajevo, though this is mitigated because we'd be right in the centre (zero travel costs once you're there), and all the city-run tourist things are free +aj (2) ? +moray aj: er, the one without a number was 2 in my mind ;) +aj ah +moray Weather - when I visited Sarajevo, it was consistently bright and mid-30s +moray while I've already explained that Edinburgh isn't wet compared to Glasgow, people *are* likely to see some rain while they're here ;) +moray I think that's me done +aj (i think we can assume we're not holding dc in glasgow :) +Maulkin ** minutes - see above for Edi strengths and weaknesses +Sledge moray: nothing further to add? +aj vedran_sjj: ok, moray had a chance to think while you were talking, did you think of anything you wanted to add while moray was? +moray oh, one more, someone implies people may be worried about kilts or haggis or bagpipes ;) +vedran_sjj nothing more from sjj +bdale moray: they're only worried that I'll be in a tie-dyed kilt all week... ;-) * Sledge shudders at that image +Sledge :-) +vedran_sjj aj: nothing more, we can go on +Maulkin ** minutes Questions and comments +Maulkin (I think) +aj vedran_sjj: okay, cheap food, local interest, exotic locale, self-contained venue; did you have any other strengths for sjj you wanted to remind people of very briefly? +vedran_sjj ok, public transport in sjj is very cheap +stockholm comments about the sponsors thing: +aj stockholm: please wait +vedran_sjj we have a top quality venue +vedran_sjj a four star hotel +vedran_sjj everything under one roof, 24/7 +aj that one's mentioned (self contained venue) +vedran_sjj I'd like to add 24/7 availability @gwolf aj: Note the 24/7 thing +aj right +vedran_sjj we have an already established Internet link + prospective donors for wireless +vedran_sjj Internet in rooms +marga vedran_sjj: that's a promise, not a fact, right? +vedran_sjj also we have server & video rooms available +aj marga: questions later +vedran_sjj marga: thats a fact, we have confirmation from ISP +marga vedran_sjj: I meant the "Internet in rooms" part. +Sledge ok, vedran_sjj: done? +vedran_sjj and one more thing: IMHO we have quite good accessibility support * gwolf has to interrupt a second - I'm leaving in under five minutes +vedran_sjj marga: that also is confirmed @gwolf I'll leave a couple of comments in the list. Please take them into account when doing the voting. +aj moray: since i forgot earlier; if dc7 were in sjj, would you be going? * gwolf ceases to interrupt +Maulkin gwolf: Or you can /msg me them and I'll relay @gwolf Maulkin: So be it. +moray aj: well, I'd rather answer about the whole team - I'm sure that there will be a good representation from our UK bid team, wherever it is +Sledge ok, that's fair enough +Maulkin ** minutes - add stuff above to +/- for sjj +aj moray: any additional strengths of edi you'd like to mentioned, other than cheap fligths, debian community, corporate sponsors? +Sledge moray: quick summary of EDI bid strengths? +moray yup ... +moray the bid team has a lot of experience of past debconfs, as well as other free software events and academic conferences, so I think we have a lot of experience between us to work to organise a good event +moray we're proposing debconf in a very central location, so we have all the amenities of the city right on our doorstep +moray the city as a whole is accessible, with e.g. the taxis required to be able to transport wheelchairs, as well as wheelchair accessible buses +moray the venues are flexible about network rearranging/mess etc. +moray there's lots of breakout space in the venue as well as outside +moray Edinburgh's a major network hub, we *might* be able to negotiate 1Gb/s from the venue, but it's certainly easy to get a nice (if slower than that) connection from one of our sponsor ISPs +Sledge ok; done? +moray the city is well-connected besides flights, btw, people from Europe can also take trains and ferries if they want to avoid killing the earth so fast +moray Sledge: yeah, I should stop +Sledge ok, done +Sledge let's move on +aj vedran_sjj: does that summary from moray of edi strengths sound fair? +Maulkin ** minutes - add stuff above to +/- for edi +vedran_sjj I'd like to add that we have some of the same things * gwolf waves goodbye. Maulkin has my final comments. I'll stay logged in to get the backlog later. +Sledge ttfn gwolf +vedran_sjj breakout space, network flexibility, we also have a minibus for transportation of disabled persons +Maulkin ** minutes dups from SJJ to above list +aj moray: happy to move on now too? +vedran_sjj yeah I said what I meant to say +moray aj: I think we want to avoid just turning into discussion of specific points here, so definitely +Sledge ok +Sledge (brief) questions for the teams +stockholm must go to bed soon +Maulkin Sledge: I need a small section in (4) for gwolf's comments +Maulkin Are we taking questions from -discuss? +Sledge Maulkin: no problem +aj oh, i guess we are +Maulkin Caus eI can relay +Sledge please do so +Sledge 10 minutes for questions, we'll be ruthless about moving on +stockholm should i comment about the sponsorship later? +Maulkin stockholm: Yeah... +Maulkin I think +marga vedran_sjj: if DC7 is in SJJ, who will be the local-team leader and how will that work? +vedran_sjj sapphire will be the leader, but our team on democratic principles +vedran_sjj our team WORKS on democratic principles +aj so i believe HP at least are committed to sponsoring debconf independent of the venue, as long as the conference is effective at improving debian; i think that's worth noting explicitly, since sjj were concerned it might be a weakness for them +vedran_sjj there will be at least three deputees +vedran_sjj Amar, Amila and myself +Sledge ok +Sledge marga: answered for you? +marga Sledge: I guess. Just one more thing, who would be communicating with the orga team? +vedran_sjj all four of us * h01ger hopes they will be(come) part of the orga team ;) +Sledge ok - next question please +Maulkin Both teams: Why do you want to host debconf? +moray I'll go? +vedran_sjj moray: you first now :) +Sledge go +aj both go, it's irc; but be brief :) +moray 'to make Debian better' - or, more specifically, because we're really enjoyed previous debconfs and want to contribute something back +Sledge ok - vedran_sjj?? +vedran_sjj we have a strong Linux community, with this I believe that we would push that com. towards Debian +Sledge ok; next Q +aj "com." ? +aj community +vedran_sjj community +Maulkin Something coming from -discuss +stockholm i have a question for for edinburgh: what options did you explore for budget food? did you investigate different places like the mosque, to combine both price and variety? +moray Sledge: should I answer that now? +stockholm something like indish on fridays, pasta on mondays, haggis on sat... (c: +Sledge moray: please, yes +bdale I need to leave to fetch my son from camp, back in 20 mins or so, will stay logged in to read scrollback on my return +aj Sledge: last round of questions? +moray the mosque kitchen is still an available option. the catering option at Teviot (for example) is a flexible canteen, and is much cheaper than other external caterers we've investigated. really the best solution depends on how much money the organising team overall decides to devote to food. the precise details on food can be organised much closer to the event than the main venue booking +Sledge aj: one more Q after moray's answer +moray I can give more detail, but I guess that's enough? +marga This is a comment, and a follow-up question. After the experience in MEX we've learned to distrust things that are promised. So it would be nice that whenever stating a situation you would state if it's an actual fact, a fact that is confirmed to happen, or just an informal promise... So, both teams, do you have a 'Plan B' for things that were promised but haven't happened yet? +Sledge ok... * Maulkin has 3... questions (all short) +Sledge SJJ first? +marga (sorry if I rushed). +Maulkin From (-discuss) * Sledge tickles marga for diving in +vedran_sjj marga: please be more exact +aj to clarify, i think marga means promised by sponsors, not by the local team +marga vedran_sjj: like network in the rooms, or that sort of stuff, which is not there yet. +vedran_sjj marga: for ISP, we discussed with their manager and they said that we will have an official "letter of intent" but sadly their marketing guy was out of town +Sledge moray: please have your answer ready too +vedran_sjj network in rooms - there is infrastructure, they just need a few switches to hook it up +vedran_sjj they have Cat5 in the rooms +vedran_sjj so I guess plan B is: we will provide the switches ;) +Sledge vedran_sjj: ok, done? @h01ger vedran_sjj, for visas at the airport? +vedran_sjj most other stuff I can think of is promised to be free, but at worst we will pay for it +Sledge moray: EDI response? +moray I don't think we're relying on anything that isn't already in place. there's still the question of negotations on facilities falling through before contracts are signed, etc. - I don't think our venues are fly-by-night like that, but this is also why we've been keeping a number of venue options open to get the best deal while we negotiate +Sledge ok +moray nothing we've asked for from the venues is 'unusual' for them, so I don't foresee problems +stockholm what about if the rooms are not 24/7 in edi? +vedran_sjj h01ger: we have a promise from Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs of B&H and we also have confirmation from other similar venues that they have experience with this +moray stockholm: we now have both the ECA and Teviot offering 24/7 +vedran_sjj h01ger: thats pretty much as good as it gets.... +stockholm moray: ah, thanks +Sledge right +moray stockholm: if we didn't have that, we do also have a backup option of another space we could use at night nearby +Maulkin My questions from -discuss? +stockholm moray: good @h01ger vedran_sjj, nods - but you know gwolf also had promises from the bureucrazy... +Sledge as Maulkin has a couple of questions from -discuss, please dive in QUICKLY +aj Sledge: discussing each teams alternatives to running dc7 after maulkin? +Maulkin "we can get food at 3am in both sjj and edi after a long night hacking" +Sledge aj: can do +Maulkin No. +Maulkin Crap. Ignore that +Maulkin "both teams, will you bid for 2008 if you don't win?" +vedran_sjj h01ger: personally I trust the other organizations that organized similar events +aj (2009; 2008 will be on a different continent apparently) +Sledge what's the Q? +Sledge ok +moray please make clear which questions we're meant to answer, and which are noise, yes ;) +Maulkin Bith teams: "both teams, will you bid for 2008 if you don't win?" +Sledge SJJ: ?? @h01ger (2009) @Ganneff 2009 +stockholm (isnt that question rather hypothetical, since it is far in the future?) +vedran_sjj we will bid on 2009 but I doubt that we will get the same prices... +Sledge ok +Sledge EDI: ?? +Maulkin I think the response I'm seeing elsewhere is: +moray I think some people will be 'burnt out' for another DebConf bid after the length of time that's led up to this one; also at points in this process it's been implied that the UK is simply too expensive a country, and if prices are unlikely to fall significantly. however, we do have people on the team who would be expect to be interested in bidding again in 2009 if it doesn't happen this year +Maulkin Ahh, food. +Maulkin Gah +Sledge Maulkin: next Q please +Maulkin "we can get food at 3am in both sjj and edi after a long night hacking / is there food or restarants generally around the place?" +Sledge ok +Maulkin (That's the last from -discuss) +moray Maulkin: do you mean s/we can/can we/? +Maulkin yes, can we +Sledge EDI: ?? * h01ger thinks the uk is cheaper than .no and .fi - isnt it? +moray h01ger: yes +vedran_sjj Maulkin: we can get food 24/7 +aj vedran_sjj: from where? the hotel or surrounding shops or...? +moray Maulkin: yes, we're right in the middle of the city +vedran_sjj aj: from hotel and the nearby restaurant (very cheap) +marga moray: do the pubs close? +moray Maulkin: a lot of bars/restaurants nearby, and fast food places nearby for late night +vedran_sjj aj: though the restaurant is not 24/7 :) +moray marga: yes, at different times from each other +Maulkin Time for one more Q? +Sledge questions done I think +Sledge Maulkin: no, too late +Maulkin ok, ta +Sledge time to move on +Sledge aj: ?? +aj okay, alternatives now? +Sledge yup - ask away +Maulkin Alternatives? +Maulkin ** minutes: questions and answers section above +aj so, if the other team hosts the conference, what will your team end up doing? helping out remotely as part of the orga team; running something else? what ideas do people have? people from -discuss might want to chime in to, i don't know if we want to demoderate briefly +aj i'd say max 15m for this at this point? +Maulkin aj: No, I can relay +Sledge yes, please relay to keep things sane +stockholm i need to go to be. +stockholm bed +vedran_sjj aj: some team members will help out +Maulkin stockholm: /msg me with any commenst you want me to relay +aj one possibility i see for sarajevo is having a regional miniconference, or a regional "free software" conference -- both those have been quite successful in australia * Maulkin swaps hats around +Maulkin I'll carry on being part of the orga team no matter who gets it. * Maulkin re-hats +aj 06:36 <weasel> aj: is this to imply that DebConf will be in EDI? +aj to answer that on channel, actually +aj no, definitely not -- it does imply i'd like to see a conference in sjj next year either way though +moray Maulkin: also from Edinburgh we have e.g. someone interested in helping with video team stuff in SJJ, Paul Sladen who says he'd attend and sleep lots ;) +moray (er, s/someone interested/Mark Brown interested/) +Sledge sladen will sleep lots wherever, I can attest to that :-) +aj 06:36 <slef> is either venue short of regional conferences already? +aj edi, sjj; are there other local conferences you can go to if dc isn't local? +vedran_sjj aj: there are no other confs +moray aj: I think that depends what you mean by 'local'; there do tend to be Debian *social* events in the UK, though mostly down in the south of England, while it's quite easy to get from Edinburgh to events on the continent +moray (e.g. KDE, GNOME conferences) +marga (for those not familiar with UK slang, 'the continent' = 'the rest of Europe that's not the UK'). +aj vedran_sjj: is it difficult for bosnians to get to KDE, GNOME etc conferences that moray mentions? i guess due to travel costs? +vedran_sjj aj: yes, there are visa issues and the general financial issues +vedran_sjj aj: though I'm wandering about the purpose of this line of questions +Maulkin Otehrs on -discuss are wondering too +vedran_sjj s/wandering/wondering/ sorry +Sledge aj: ?? +aj damn, and i thought i'd be the one asking the difficult questions +Sledge :-) +aj okay, so this requires a little background +aj in australia, we have an annual linux conference; it started in '99, missed a year, continued in 2001 and has been annual since then +aj i was on the organising team for it in 2002 (we had about 250-300 people), and have been more or less involved in most of them since then +aj the focus of the conference is basically "it's too hard to travel to europe for most of us to see all their cool talks, ditto america, so let's bring them out here" +aj in 2002 we also started running a debian miniconf, which attracted about 100 people, mostly debian users rather than developers, and has continued ever year since too +aj it's different to debconf, since it's more about talks and users than hacking and developers, but is quite interesting +aj it just strikes me that bosnia/the balkans are in a similar situation, and maybe a similar solution would be interesting; i know a few people i've talked to who are in favour of edi for dc7, also think that a "linux.conf.balkans" every year would be a fascinating event +Sledge ok... +Sledge aj: done? +vedran_sjj aj: interesting idea, but it's a bit hard to think about that when we don't know if we will host DebConf or not +aj yes +Sledge right +Maulkin aj, would it not make sense to use a DebConf as a kick-off for an annual series? +Maulkin From -discuss +Maulkin Quick answer please :) * Sledge nods Maulkin +aj Maulkin: it could easily, the question is what would edi do then? i don't even have a guess for that +Sledge right +Sledge I think we're wandering off, time to get back to the agenda +aj yup +Maulkin All ok form -discuss. +Maulkin *from +Sledge orga team comments +Sledge item 4 +Maulkin Ok. * Maulkin needs a little bit here from gwolf and stockholm @Ganneff then start +Maulkin <stockholm> i asked sponsors if they would sponsor either debconf or sarajevo when asking for sponsorship last time around. and they consider both "europe" and would sponsor. e.g. the big providers in germany etc. +marga I guess there's and EDI missing there. +Maulkin Yes. +Maulkin 21:00 <gwolf> As for the local teams, the EDI team looks more responsable/grown-up, and I must acknowledge their balance - even on looking on Sarajevo information when the other team could not answer something +Maulkin 21:02 <gwolf> The SJJ team looks very enthusiastic, and they (claim to - should we believe them? I do at least :) ) have experience on other non-Debconf conferences - Now, as for my experience here, no conference gets you ready for Debconf... But still :) +Maulkin 21:02 <gwolf> Anyway, I won't go anymore on the issue-per-issue thing +Maulkin 21:02 <gwolf> The amount of details we can work on for both sides is huge +Maulkin 21:03 <gwolf> Both venues have great installations, but I think the Terme hotel provides a more comfortable setting where we will be able to sit and work +Maulkin [ends] +Sledge Maulkin: thanks +Sledge any other orga team comments please +Maulkin Oh, and for me, I'm staying out of particular discussions, due to potential bias. @Ganneff my opinion about this meeting is known, so i dont speak much more then when it comes to "decision". +Sledge anybody else? +Maulkin yes. +aj Ganneff: can you summarise that to the list when it's convenient for the record, please? +Maulkin <@mooch> Maulkin: nokia comment, please +marga I don't have comments. +Maulkin No idea what that means though +marga <mooch> nokia will probably not have a problem with the venue +bdale mooch is primary point of contact for Nokia as a sponsor, I presume +Maulkin Erm... +aj Maulkin: want me to take the heat for quoting this one? :) +marga aj: I'll do it. +Maulkin aj: Please, I can't as I have bias +aj marga, go ahead, i'd like to comment on it afterwards (too) +Sledge please just post the comment +Maulkin ok. +marga It is the opinion of several people (mooch is the one raising it at this moment), that should the conference happen in SJJ, Safir might not be the best person to lead the group since it needs a lot of cold blood and controled spirit not to break apart, and he has demonstrated to be too influenced by personal feelings and attacking attitude during the process. +Maulkin Thanks marga +aj the term "impulsive" maybe have appeared too; i'd just like to say that i've been very impressed by the excitement and enthusiasm of the sjj team, and while i think that has boiled over into taking offense unnecessarily now and then, it's that sort of passion that makes these sorts of conferences great +Sledge if we have no more orga comments, I'd like to move us on again +Maulkin Sledge: Checking -discuss now * h01ger is not sure if he has something new to say @Ganneff um. sjj didnt comment on that one point yet? +aj otoh, actually running them tends to teach you hot to deal with those sorts of reactions, because you get so stressed out you have to learn one way or another +vedran_sjj Ganneff: what point exactly? @Ganneff vedran_sjj: margas quote +vedran_sjj Ganneff: amar_sjj responded on -discuss @Ganneff different chan, not in minutes +Maulkin I think that's all @h01ger <amar_sjj> Maulkin: the bosnian team consists of 27 people. Safir initiated everything but the DebCof will be handled by the TEAM. +Sledge ok, let's see that response and move on please +vedran_sjj the sjj team consists of 27 people. safir started everything but debconf will be handled by the TEAM +Maulkin Can we move? +vedran_sjj thanks h01ger +Sledge yes +Sledge item 5 by my count +Maulkin ** minutes above comments from orga * h01ger looks at the agenda to see if he should say something now or later * Maulkin nods +Sledge h01ger: shout now if you're going to @Ganneff h01ger: you are orga, so talk +Sledge h01ger: ?? * h01ger thinks * Sledge urges h01ger to think quickly :-) @h01ger i think i value the "strong, mature, experienced local team" EDI team, but must admit he has also been impressed by the SJJ team recently but still has doubts. +Sledge right +Sledge thankyou, let's move on @h01ger and me shuts up, for sake +Sledge 5: "weigh up bids against priorities" +Maulkin ** minutes see abouve for orga team comments, now weigh up bids against priorities" +marga -> http://wiki.debian.org/DebConfPriorityList +Sledge marga: yup +Sledge right, let's get this organised +Sledge would orga people prefer to give their rankings against all the priorities at once, or shall we go through an item at a time? +aj how about we see if moray and vedran_sjj can agree on answers for each priority first? +marga Sledge: I don't know if ranking is important... +Maulkin Again, I'm abstaining this section. +Sledge aj: I think we've probably seen enough discussion of those +marga At least, we should discard those priorities which are pretty much the same for both venues. +moray aj: I think that'll just turn into a fight about details and how you weigh up sub-points of each? +aj sorry as in "both venues seems to be roughly equally affordable for sponsors" ? +Maulkin Ok... +Maulkin Suggestion. +Sledge Maulkin: go ahead +Maulkin Sledge: state the 'item' and give an opinion on which is stronger or weaker or the same. +Sledge ... * h01ger has another comment, sorry. the SJJ team has not been involved in dc before (like stockholm demanded before dc6 and now waved this requirement) - OTOH people from the EDI team have and i think its good. +Maulkin Ask for objections from local teams and orga team +Sledge Maulkin: ok, I'll do that +Maulkin Then move on @Ganneff 2,3,4,5,6,7,9 are too similar for both locations and can be kicked imo. +Sledge h01ger: you're too late +Sledge right +Sledge item 1: cost +aj (jftr: safir was involved as a volunteer at dc5 aiui) +marga Ganneff: I disagree. +Maulkin Can we keep this short BTW? +Sledge in terms of cost, we have: cheaper on the ground for SJJ, cheaper travel for EDI +marga Ganneff: I think the points at stake are 1,2,4 and 8. +Sledge does that sound a fair summary? +vedran_sjj Ganneff marga: I must object +Sledge vedran_sjj: what's the problem? +moray Sledge: yes: prices on the ground vary depending exactly what we decide to pay for for attendees, but certainly things of the same quality will be cheaper in Sarajevo, whereas getting to Edinburgh gives budget airlines for Europeans, and significantly cheaper flights for others +vedran_sjj I think all points need to be weighed +Sledge vedran_sjj: ok, we'll weigh them all up +Sledge vedran_sjj: are you happy with the summary of cost? +vedran_sjj Sledge: you mean the spreadsheet? yes we're fine with that +Sledge right +marga vedran_sjj: he means this: "<Sledge> in terms of cost, we have: cheaper on the ground for SJJ, cheaper travel for EDI" +Sledge pri #2: local team @Ganneff edi more involved in prior debconfs, more in debian. sjj more people, some have organized big conferences already. i trust both to make a good conf. * h01ger also thinks 1,2,4 and 8 are the important (different) ones +moray marga appeared to want to say something here; I don't think it's useful for us teams to comment? +Sledge Ganneff: thanks, about what I'd have said +Sledge marga: please dive in if you have something +moray Sledge: can I correct that we've intentionally only listed people who were already involved, there are a lot more people in the UK who've expressed interest in helping *if* DebConf happens here +Sledge moray: noted +moray (including edlug, compsoc people as mentioned on the wiki) +vedran_sjj Sledge: also applies for SJJ +aj if both teams could keep some room at the conference for non-organisers, that would be great :) * h01ger wonders if the localteams should be involved so much in weighting the prios.. +bdale my opinion is that both teams have critical mass already +Sledge any further comments on pri2? * Sledge waits 30 secs +marga Ok +marga Sorry, was away one moment, I have a comment. +Sledge marga: go +marga It's my understanding that it's a question of "National Pride" for SJJ people to hold a DebConf. However, I do fear that they might not be ready for hosting DebConf yet. +Sledge right +Sledge 30 secs +marga Mainly because only Safir has been present in a previous DebConf, and DebConf is not like any other conference. * h01ger nods +Sledge pri3: good working spaces +Sledge as far as I can see, both bids should have this covered +Sledge if you disagree, please respond ASAP +bdale I think so too +vedran_sjj Sledge: 24/7, special rooms @Ganneff both are covered here @Ganneff hotel has enough room, edi also. +vedran_sjj Sledge: same building +Maulkin That's a different point +Sledge moving on +Sledge pri4: excellant network connectivity @h01ger vedran_sjj..., u didnt say anything new/interesting now... (really) (at 3) +vedran_sjj h01ger: am I allowed to point out our strengths? @Ganneff pri4 - edi may have more uplink, but sjj would give us also enough for debconf IMO +Sledge both have offers of networking from local ISPs that should be enough for us; EDI may have an advantage in terms of absolute bw +Maulkin vedran_sjj: Please just state if you disagree with the summaries @h01ger vedran_sjj, i thought the orga team weights the priorities - you had your time allready.. +Sledge any disagreement? +Sledge 30 secs +aj i believe the edi venue also has wired networking already hooked up, whereas the sjj team may have to do that themselves +vedran_sjj Maulkin: I disagree with summary of pri3 * h01ger is not sure about aruba and other hw sponsors but the SJJ offerings are not that bad @h01ger (because esp. aruba-sponsorship relies on local dealers..) @Ganneff aj: no already setup wired did suffice up tonow @Ganneff aj: i think we need to run cables in both locations for some parts +Sledge vedran_sjj: what's the problem with (3)? +Maulkin vedran_sjj: Do you feel sjj is stronger in terms of the actual working spaces? (not rooms etc) +marga vedran_sjj: pri 3 refers to hacklabs / talk rooms. Not allocation. +moray Ganneff: yeah, in ECA we might want to add some, and in either venue would certainly need to split out for individual machines etc. +vedran_sjj Sledge: we have confirmed 24/7 and availability of server and video rooms @h01ger Ganneff, which might be harder in a hotel (but wasnt a problem in brasil) +Maulkin vedran_sjj: So does Edinburgh @Ganneff h01ger: not according to the hotel, we asked that. should be doable. @h01ger Ganneff, ok +vedran_sjj we also have more hacklabs available +marga vedran_sjj: more? How many rooms for how many people? @Ganneff i wouldnt count numbers there, as some locations in edi have lots of rooms. +Sledge vedran_sjj: I think most people are happy with both bids on this front, we should move on @Ganneff yes. next. * h01ger nods to sledge +vedran_sjj marga: we have 6 rooms available, one large room up to 300 people and the other are smaller +Sledge people happy with (4)? +bdale if sjj thinks they're slightly ahead on 3, they seem to be slightly behind on 4, so it probably washes out +vedran_sjj bdale: I agree +moray bdale: in either venue in Edinburgh rooms would be limited by what we rent rather than space +moray (as Ganneff said) * Maulkin moves for closure on (3) and (4) +Sledge 30 secs on (4), then move on +bdale my opinion is that both teams have adequate answers for 3 and 4 to ensure a good conf +Sledge (5): +Sledge quality and quantity of food and drink in close proximity +moray is this about sponsored catering or outside stuff, or both? +Sledge both, I think @Ganneff for 5 - both sites can offer good food. the price may vary in EDI, depending on what is chosen. +bdale moray: I meant both * h01ger nods to Ganneff +Sledge on site food seems to be good enough in both, though maybe more expensive in EDI +aj expensive goes back to point (1), no? * Maulkin nods +Sledge for separate food, EDI may have a slight advantage due to being right in the city centre; again, both are adequate @Ganneff where i only vote against using the mosque kitchen for the whole thing, but except that i guess both sides will feed us good enough. maybe edi more expensive, depends on what they can talk out of the guys there. +bdale for perspective, I think dc2 and dc3 were barely adequate in this regard, dc4 had great in-house meals but going off site was a challenge. dc5 was so-so on food all told, and dc6 was stunningly good because there were many options available within easy walk at good prices +Sledge any arguments on (5)? 30 secs +Maulkin bdale: Thus, do you have a preferred venue for this? +bdale Maulkin: I've been to EDI, I've never been to SJJ, I find it hard to differentiate well based on what has been asserted in the proposals +Maulkin Or any objections to "They're both equal"? :) +bdale I'd abstain +Maulkin :) +Sledge ok, moving on to (6): suitabile housing in close proximity +vedran_sjj Maulkin: sjj is much cheaper +moray Maulkin: well, I'd mildly object on that, but I agree no one will starve in either +Maulkin .oO(This is feeling like a SPI meeting)Oo. +Maulkin vedran_sjj: That was section (1), it's been noted * bdale whacks Maulkin +Sledge Maulkin: *grin* @h01ger vedran_sjj, thats is point1. atm you're only weakening point2 @h01ger what does "suitabile housing in close proximity" mean? +Sledge housing: sjj has an advantage with accommodation on the same site; EDI is more spread out (but not a *huge* amount) @h01ger accomodation? +Maulkin h01ger: yes +marga SJJ has an advantage over EDI at prio. 6, since it's a four star hotel, and everything is close together. EDI's proposal is still acceptable and "DebConf level". * Sledge nods marga * h01ger nods to marga * bdale agrees @Ganneff accomodation is in SJJ all in one, EDI is spread in the city. and has of course a lot of hotels also there. @Ganneff plus for sjj imo. @h01ger anybody taking notes on this pro/con things? +Sledge no arguments? moving on in 30s * Maulkin is taking minutes. +aj one advantage to EDI on that score is people can opt to go to a 5-star hotel if they're willing to pay +aj the SJJ bid gets everyone into the 4-star hotel instead +bdale aj: I'm presuming you could also do that in SJJ, though? cheap taxis, too. +aj ah, good point +Sledge (7): presentation facilities +aj this is what happens when you walk everywhere... @Ganneff for 7 - SJJ has the technic of the hotel included for free. sjj has the lecture halls in ECA and big rooms in teviot. +bdale traveling on an expense account is definitely a different experience... * Sledge nods Ganneff +bdale s/sjj/EDI/, right? @Ganneff sjj has a big room for main talks, with stuff for beamer and sound, and various smaller rooms for other things. @Ganneff edi has the lecture halls or big room, and also various smaller rooms. dont know technic in lecture halls in EDI. +marga So, it's even? +Sledge sounds like +bdale both sound adequate +moray Ganneff: Maulkin and sladen_uk have worked in audiovisual stuff (and kevc_uk does sound stuff), so we have lots of contacts for getting lent/sponsored equipment, besides what's in the venues +moray (so yes, I'd agree both are adequate) * h01ger nods to moray +Sledge ok, so even there by all accounts +Sledge moving on in 30s @Ganneff (that even is why i mentioned skip) +Sledge (8) travel logistics @Ganneff plus for EDI, way more airlines there. +Sledge this point is a major plus towards EDI @h01ger visas also * marga nods. +bdale both require 3 airline flights for me. there seem to be more connection options to EDI, and EDI seems to be cheaper though not by a lot. +Sledge ok +Sledge any argument? moving on in 30s +bdale I don't appear to need a visa for either. +aj the one world alliance airlines don't seem to travel to sarajevo, though i need to talk to my travel agent again @h01ger bdale, you us-american :) +marga bdale: it's been shown that from the list of DC6 attendees more people would need a visa to go to SJJ than to go to EDI. +moray Sledge: we may have trouble if a *lot* of Europeans take budget flights to a DebConf in Edinburgh :p +Sledge moray: worry about that as/when @h01ger moray, same is true for SJJ... (probably even more) @Ganneff i think both airports are well connected for the number of people +Sledge moving on to (9) accessibility +bdale marga: I understand that. I just took the time to research what it would take me to get there, so thought I'd comment. I mentioned here before the meeting that neither country is on the list of places I'm supposed to avoid on behalf of my employer, which is good news. @Ganneff 9 is even for both. SJJ has a slight advantage in the hotel, EDI out in the streets with the need for all taxis to have weelchair access. SJJ seems to have a bus for weelchairs for us to use whenever we want. in EDI disabled people most probably need to go to a hotel, not our hostels. (ie together with sponsors that dont take hostels). +Maulkin 22:40 <@Jon_uk> (8) summary? +Sledge Maulkin: ah, true * marga nods to Ganneff @h01ger Ganneff, the both airports point is not true @h01ger while i nod to the accessability point of Ganneff :) @Ganneff h01ger: the capacity for the number of people is ok at both locations. +Sledge (8) summary: cheaper flights to EDI on the whole, easier for visas for most people @Ganneff h01ger: we have a laughable amnount of people going there. @h01ger Ganneff, the capacity yes. +Sledge are we agreed on accessibility? +moray Ganneff: it sounds like you're implying people would need to take taxis: in Edinburgh the ordinary buses are generally wheelchair accessible too; also because we're in the centre probably no attendees would *need* to take a bus even if they want to see the city @Ganneff moray: no. just mentioning the fact. +Maulkin Sledge: I'd rate them == @Ganneff accessibility is equal @h01ger so both are equal on that +Sledge ok, agreed +Sledge right +Sledge I hope somebody out there is counting these answers +Maulkin Crap. ok. +marga The main problem is not counting but weighing. +Sledge are the 2 teams happy overall with the responses here? +aj okay, so clear draw on (5)-catering; (7), and (9) +vedran_sjj Sledge: sjj is fine @h01ger Sledge, i think cheaper is not the point in 8 (as its 1). but more flights (budgets and less changes) and less visa trouble certainly is. +Sledge EDI: happy with the summaries? +Sledge h01ger: good point, yes +aj different advantages both ways, but no clear winner on (1), and (9) +marga aj: I think 9 was declared equal. 1 is actually like 1a and 1b. @h01ger aj, wasnt 9 equal @h01ger ?! +aj sorry +aj i mean edi-is-better-due-to-X, sjj-is-better-due-to-Y, but it evens out * Maulkin is summarising atm +marga So, how do we weigh / decide ? @h01ger i really cannot follow it :-) (to late) - /me suggest to wait for Maulkins summary.. @h01ger too late even! +Maulkin 1 cheaper on the ground for SJJ, cheaper travel for EDI +Maulkin 2 edi more involved in prior debconfs, more in debian. sjj more people, some have organized big conferences already. +Maulkin 3 equal +Maulkin 4 both acceptable, edi has more potential bandwidth +Maulkin 5 both can offer good food +Maulkin 6 sjj has advantage +Maulkin 7 equal +Maulkin 8 cheaper flights to EDI on the whole, easier for visas for most people +Maulkin 9 equal +Maulkin I think * h01ger likes to bring back in memory that we priorized them in order of importance * Maulkin nods +Maulkin I can do some evil scoring thing if you want. +marga Maulkin: it depends. +Maulkin ie: partial advantage = 0.5, full advantage = 1. +Maulkin Times by 10-priority number +Maulkin Or someone else do it :) +Sledge how do the orga team wish to do this? @h01ger Maulkin, go, Maulkin! +Maulkin Or it's a stupid idea. +Maulkin I dunno! :) +marga I don't know, I don't like scoring, particularly because we didn't really debate the priorities. * h01ger thinks this is ok-ish - we could also just weight +vedran_sjj <bdale> if sjj thinks they're slightly ahead on 3, they seem to be slightly behind on 4, so it probably washes out +Maulkin Or we can just do: +Maulkin 22:50 <@Igloo> kevc_uk: The local team who dress up in the silliest outfits win? +bdale drop the equals, weigh the rest +marga So, the points that matter are: +marga 1 - cheaper on the ground for SJJ, cheaper travel for EDI +marga 2 - edi more involved in prior debconfs, more in debian. sjj more people, some have organized big conferences already. * sapphire_sjj puts on the silly hat :) +marga 6 - sjj has advantage * h01ger nods. but i really think 2 is not correctly summarized. we had a big local team in .mx too. +marga 8 - cheaper flights to EDI on the whole, easier for visas for most people @Ganneff h01ger: no, we had not. @h01ger (nodding to bdale that was) @Ganneff h01ger: it was said to be there. but wasnt. @h01ger Ganneff, no. not in .mx. but before. @Ganneff h01ger: here we know its there. * h01ger wont start a wdiscussion about single points now @h01ger (not more as i already did, sorry for that) +Maulkin Quick issue: are we doing this by scoring, or consensus? +Sledge consensus would be better, if possible * h01ger nods @h01ger consensus of whom though :) +Maulkin Can we try that first? @h01ger (tahts always the question) +aj i'm not convinced that "more people" balances out the involvement in debian that the uk group have already had; mooch and marga had some specific concerns on that earlier, in particular +Maulkin ok... +Maulkin General comments/concerns on my summary above please :) +Maulkin Are we taking general comments, or just orga? +marga Yes, point 2 should be rephrased. +Maulkin ok +moray Maulkin: comments from whom? I still think Edinburgh has a definite advantage on 5(b) food outside the venue, since that's a lot of the reason I pressed for it to be *in* the city... +vedran_sjj moray: thats debatable +marga 2 - EDI have been more involved in prior debconfs, more in Debian. SJJ has very enthusiastic people, only Safir in DebConf5, although they organized big conferences. +Maulkin So != ? +moray marga: UK people have also been involved in organising big non-Debian conferences, in case you're implying otherwise +marga moray: I was not. +Maulkin 22:55 <@Hydroxide> a bit of input suitable for replaying: items 1 seems to mostly be a washout; 6 and 8 balance out; in item 2, I think that the involvement in debian is an especially important advantage for edi since this is, after all, a DebConf, not a Free Software Conf. @h01ger moray, i think "food outside the venue" is nice (and surely closer in EDI) but i dont think its really much relevant for debconf +moray h01ger: ok, bdale said that was part of what he meant by that criterion @h01ger Maulkin, could you please repost the rephrased complete list? /me is tired of scrolling.. :) +Maulkin Just a sec... +aj we're calling (1), (6)+(8), (7) and (9) balanced for both groups, no? +Maulkin How's this: +Maulkin 1 cheaper on the ground for SJJ, cheaper travel for EDI. Equal +Maulkin 2 EDI have been more involved in prior debconfs, more in Debian. SJJ has very enthusiastic people, only Safir in DebConf5, although they organized big conferences. Edi strong advantage +Maulkin 3 equal +Maulkin 4 both acceptable, edi has more potential bandwidth. - equal +Maulkin 5 both can offer good food - euqal +Maulkin 6 sjj stong advantage +Maulkin 7 equal +Maulkin 8 cheaper flights to EDI on the whole, easier for visas for most people - edi +Maulkin slight advantage +Maulkin 9 equal +bdale h01ger: it really depends. if you like and/or are satisfied by the group meals, that can work fine. dc4 was like that for me, for example. if you're not, then what's available nearby is very important. in the case of dc6 it was particularly nice to be able to "wander off" in a small group to experience some local food and culture without having to make a big deal about it +Maulkin Please object to this if you think it's wrong :) +Maulkin I'd like to hear from sjj and edi here... +Maulkin As to the above summary +aj (3), i thought there was a slight advantage to sjj; but i haven't studied either venue in enough detail to say +vedran_sjj why is 2 strong advantage for Edi? +moray Maulkin: the 'strong' in 6 seems to be new * h01ger thinks 5 is less important as 2+4 are in favor of EDI and 1+3 are equal. +aj (5)-remote food was a slight advantage to edi, i thought too * h01ger wonders if he maybe thats why _he_ doesnt care that much about 5? +vedran_sjj aj: as I said before (and you silenced me), food outside venue is much cheaper in sjj +moray aj: obviously I'm partisan, but I didn't feel the working spaces in SJJ were better than what we're proposing - they probably had more carpet, but they seemed more awkward spaces IMO +aj oh, sorry, i should've reminded you to repeat that after moray had finished; doh @h01ger vedran_sjj, how close is that? walking distance? +vedran_sjj h01ger: yes, 5 minutes walk +marga vedran_sjj: because, as it was stated before, it is important for the local team to have been involved in previous DebConfs. stockholm had actually said that it was a "requirement" for one of the local-team to have been an organizer of the previous year DebConf. SJJ has only Safir participating in DC5 as a volunteer, not as an organizer. While EDI has a big group of people who have been attendants/volunteers, and Maulkin was an organizer for DC6. +Maulkin ok... @h01ger and moray hangs out here since idunno +Maulkin 1 equal +Maulkin 2 EDI strong +Maulkin 3 SJJ slight +Maulkin 4 equal +Maulkin 5 equal +Maulkin 6 SJJ stong +Maulkin 7 equal +Maulkin 8 EDI slight +Maulkin 9 equal +Maulkin Which leaves: +Maulkin 2 EDI strong +Maulkin 3 SJJ slight +Maulkin 6 SJJ strong +Maulkin 8 EDI slight +aj (4) and (5) i'd say EDI slight; (8) i'd say EDI "clear" +Maulkin 'clear'? * h01ger supports aj +aj strong, but not to say it's more important than the previous priorities @h01ger its prio 8 :) +marga Actually, I thought that we had evened-out 3 and 4. If 3 is SJJ slight (nobody except vedran_sjj knows why), then 4 is EDI slight. +Maulkin aj: ok, strong +sapphire_sjj marga Safir has been in orga team for DC6 +Maulkin It'll be done with priorites anyway +Maulkin objections to 4 and 5 edi weak? +vedran_sjj Maulkin: yes objection to 5 +aj yes, likewise +moray maulkin: 'edi weak' sounds like you mean 'edinburgh is weak' +aj oh wait +Maulkin Sorry, s/weak/slight/ +Maulkin ok... +vedran_sjj Maulkin: 4. Edi has no connectivity in hotel rooms +bdale I commented on that in my email to -team * h01ger just noticed that he knows three people wondering what sapphire_sjj did for dc6 - i'm sorry to say this... but +Maulkin vedran_sjj: I think that was seen as a advantage as well as a disadvantage @Ganneff h01ger: work before debconf on some parts +bdale I'm not sure that connectivity in housing is actually a benefit. +Maulkin Can we please agree that (3) and (4) cancel each other out? +moray Maulkin: well, I think Edinburgh's better on both... +vedran_sjj Maulkin: yes it was seen as a way to force people to go to venue, which in sjj is unneccesarry since hotel is the venue @h01ger Maulkin, no, i dont agree +Maulkin ok. @Ganneff this doesnt get us anywhere... * h01ger nods Ganneff @h01ger 5min break? * marga sighs and nods. +sapphire_sjj h01ger, I did gather information, contacted sponsors and worked on the website @h01ger sapphire_sjj, ok. +bdale vedran_sjj: your point is well taken, but camping out in one's room and being in a public room with others is clearly not socially equivalent +Maulkin (1) is equal, agreed? +aj yes +Sledge yes +bdale vedran_sjj: I'm not saying it's a problem to have connectivity in the housing, just that it's not a clear advantage * Maulkin waits... +Maulkin (7) is equal, agreed? +aj yes +Sledge yup +Maulkin 30 secs +marga yes +Maulkin (9) is equal, agreed? +Maulkin (30 secs) +aj yes +bdale agreed +Sledge yup +Maulkin ok, thanks +Maulkin Right, now the hard bit :) +Maulkin 2: edi strong. +Maulkin Agreed? +aj yes +vedran_sjj no @h01ger yes +Maulkin (see above for reasoning) +sapphire_sjj no +Sledge Maulkin: yup +Maulkin Ok, we'll come back to 2. +marga yes. @Ganneff slight +Maulkin 3 SJJ slight @Ganneff yes +Maulkin Agreed? +moray Maulkin: I don't get the justification for that yet +marga I don't see the reasoning, but I don't think it's worth the bother discussing it. +Maulkin moray: Is that a disgree? +vedran_sjj moray: 24/7 availability +vedran_sjj moray: video and server rooms * Maulkin marks 3 as contested +aj vedran_sjj: moray's noted several times they've confirmed 24/7 availability for edi +Maulkin 4 EDI slight @h01ger me not really neither. but if we if give EDI the benifit of the doubt in "2 EDI strong"..., SJJ has 3 slightly +vedran_sjj aj: confirmed? thats new +aj vedran_sjj: since last week, yes +vedran_sjj aj: video and server rooms remain +marga yes for 4 EDI slight. @h01ger so me takes back what he said before * Maulkin hands back to Sledge +Maulkin Or not. +Maulkin Ok. +Maulkin No objections to 4. +Maulkin 5 EDI slight +vedran_sjj Maulkin: 5 no! +vedran_sjj Maulkin: based on what? +moray vedran_sjj: (no, we have these too, as also said earlier) +Maulkin Just state if you have objections please +Maulkin Ok. That's on objection +Maulkin 6 SJJ strong @Ganneff yes +sapphire_sjj Maulking, 5 object @h01ger Maulkin, so 3 was equal? (as i just read on -dicuss that EDI has 24/7 for server/video as well) +Maulkin Sledge: noted +marga yes. +Maulkin h01ger: It's been contested. * Maulkin sees no objections to 6 +Maulkin 8 EDI strong +Maulkin Objections? +aj sorry, yes to both 6 and 8 +moray Maulkin: I think strong was over-egging on 6 +aj as in agree, not yes to objections :) @h01ger Maulkin, ? dont know the word "contested"... what is the 3 now? well, i'll wait for the full list +aj moray: hostels versus a hotel seems an advantage to sjj to me +marga yes to 8. +Maulkin moray: Ok, noted. @h01ger aj, 6 is SJJ strong?! @Ganneff h01ger: yes. +Maulkin It's been noted for 6 is in dispute +Maulkin 8 please. +moray aj: ok, I didn't know the point was qualitative rather than 'is there some accomm. appropriately' +Maulkin Edi strong. +Maulkin I see no objections +Sledge 8 is agreed +marga h01ger: having a 4 star hotel that accommodates everyone, instead of two separate hostels sounds like better accomodation to me. +Maulkin (sorry, I'm getting annoyed and want to go to bed) +Maulkin ok! +Maulkin Right, we have 4 contested items. 2,4,5 and 6 +sapphire_sjj 6 is agreed as well +aj is (2) contested except by members of the teams it's referring to? @h01ger Maulkin, the contestions from SJJ on 5 have been "revoked" by EDI @Ganneff can we do the rest without *both* local teams? (sorry). they only contest the other side then imo. +Maulkin 2: Edi strong, objection received from vedran_sjj and sapphire_sjj * h01ger nods Ganneff +moray Ganneff: I'm happy to keep quiet +moray Ganneff: just didn't want to do so while my input was expected +Maulkin ok. +Sledge moray: thanks +Maulkin sapphire_sjj: Are you ok with that? +vedran_sjj Ganneff: I'll be quiet too @Ganneff ok, so both local teams quiet. :) +Maulkin 2 EDI strong * h01ger wonders what the status of 3 is? +sapphire_sjj Maulkin, ok +Maulkin (30 secs) +bdale item 2 is clearly a question of how the decision-making group feels more than something that can be measured in absolute terms +Sledge yup @Ganneff i would rate 2 as slight. +marga I would rate it as strong * h01ger would rate it as stronger than slight at least +marga Should we go with semi-strong? slightly-strong? * h01ger nods marga +Sledge yuo +Maulkin Ok... semi strong +Sledge yup +aj strong with noted preferences to slight from ganneff? * Sledge strangles aj +Maulkin 3 SJJ slight +aj sorry, i typed slow :) @Ganneff and to note it: thats from the meeting with them. @Ganneff from the impression i got. +Maulkin noted objections from moray +aj Ganneff: them = both teams, yes? +marga Ganneff: you've been to both places, would you agree that work areas are the same? @Ganneff aj: nah. i can rate SJJ higher than i would without meeting them. ie i lower the advantage of beeing involved in debian a bit. * h01ger wonders what Maulkin noted from moray. @Ganneff aj: but keeping a slight advantage for edi +Sledge right. Maulkin: next point please +Maulkin 23:13 <+moray> Maulkin: I don't get the justification for that yet +aj the argument for SJJ slight was that the venue was 24/7 and had video/server rooms 24/7; but since last meeting the edi team seem to have confirmed both those are available in EDI too @Ganneff for the work areas - similar space. hotel has some more comfort, but space is ok both sides. +Maulkin Ok... is that now equal, or what? * h01ger thinks so * marga nods. +Maulkin no objections received +Maulkin 5 EDI slight * +Maulkin objections from SJJ +marga I'd say... EDI very slight. @Ganneff edi has more pubs/restaurants *neaer* sjj has something near, but due to edi beeing in the city center there are naturally more. +marga But they can both provide what we would need. +aj aiui they have 24/7 food available, and alternative food available locally; but EDI has morechoices available locally for longer hours +bdale cheap taxis in SJJ might mitigate that, but within walking distance is a powerful differentiator +Maulkin So is slight "right"? @h01ger yes +bdale from what I know, EDI slight seems right +aj yes +Sledge looks like +Maulkin 6 SJJ strong @Ganneff si +Maulkin Objectiosn from a few people * h01ger nods @Ganneff the hotel is an advantage here. +Maulkin 23:17 <@h01ger> aj, 6 is SJJ strong?! +Maulkin 23:17 <+moray> Maulkin: I think strong was over-egging on 6 @Ganneff strong due to the 4-star hotel @Ganneff and everything in one place. +Maulkin So the proposal is slight, instead of strong. * h01ger nods - must have mistyped that one @Ganneff edi has hostels. @Ganneff so strong is ok in this point imo. +Maulkin Ok... I'll leave it as strong, agreed? @Ganneff yes +marga yes +Maulkin Lat point! :) +aj i think strong in the same way travel for edi is strong -- a hostel is acceptable, but a hotel is better, just as we could get to sjj, but it'll be more conveinent to get to edi * Sledge nods aj +Sledge Maulkin: go go go! * h01ger ment 8 i think +Maulkin yes +Maulkin 8 EDI strong +Maulkin but not contested! +Maulkin So! +Maulkin 2 EDI strong(ish) * +Maulkin Is that Ok with everyone? +aj yes @Ganneff we had that. make the summary. +Maulkin Right, the final (non ==) list is: +Maulkin 2 EDI strong(ish) +Maulkin 3 SJJ slight +Maulkin 4 EDI slight +Maulkin 5 EDI slight +Maulkin 6 SJJ strong +Maulkin 8 EDI strong +Maulkin Enjoy. +aj hrm? i thought 3 became a draw? * h01ger nods aj +Maulkin (This is weighted, so don't add up stongs/weaks :P) +Maulkin sorry. +Maulkin 2 EDI strong(ish) +Maulkin 4 EDI slight +Maulkin 5 EDI slight +Maulkin 6 SJJ strong +Maulkin 8 EDI strong +aj 1,3,7,9 draw +Maulkin yes +Maulkin The rest dreaw +Maulkin *draw +Sledge right +Sledge decision +Maulkin Yes +Maulkin Someone from orga make a motion please. * Sledge nods * h01ger waves * Maulkin stabs * bdale waits patiently +marga I wonder what we are waiting for @h01ger isnt it obvious? +bdale aj @h01ger so, its edinburgh. now flame me to death. +Maulkin Ok. +moray did aj fall asleep again? +Maulkin Objections form orga? +aj i wish +Maulkin *from * h01ger has dinner atm +vedran_sjj I'd like to use this intermission to congratulate Maulkin for excellent leading of this meeting +sapphire_sjj no gwlof, no stockholm +aj likewise +Maulkin It's not over yet... +Maulkin :) @Ganneff vedran_sjj: you know that most was done by sledge and maulkin, not Maulkin alone? +Maulkin But thank you vedran_sjj :) +aj thanks also to both teams for sticking around and being very helpful (and being patient with my napping) +Maulkin Yes, Sledge++ +marga vedran_sjj: likewis, I'd like to congratulate you on a great representation from Sarajevo. +vedran_sjj thanks marga +Maulkin That was far too close. +Sledge vedran_sjj and moray: thanks for clear bids and responses to questions tonight +Maulkin Can we have two debconfs a year? ::) * Sledge stabs Maulkin * Sledge stabs Maulkin again, just in case the first wasn't enough * h01ger also really says thanks+kudos to both teams, you're presentations and preparations have been real good +Maulkin Aww! @Ganneff so. now -team has to sort out itself i think. but probably tomorrow... +aj so shall we (a) schedule a time to discuss how we do this in future now this decision's out of the way and we don't have any active bids; and (b) can i talk to the sjj guys about stuff sometime too (in english :)? @h01ger (damn, maybe i should have skipped that politician like "both teams" here. but i mean it.. and would have said it in any case) * Sledge nods aj @Ganneff aj: a.) no. that should be done at running debconf. +moray aj: can someone post an 'official' decision +Sledge h01ger: do you really want to have the orga team discussion now? @Ganneff aj: by kicking both teams into a room and loosing the key until they have one location only. +vedran_sjj aj: b) sure! we'll be around +Sledge Maulkin: thanks for doing the minuting and pri tallying, I'll take it back now if you want to run +Maulkin Sledge: Can you post a decision to debconf-annouce? +aj Ganneff: that's what needs to be discussed @h01ger Sledge, no. as much as i hate to postpone it again or rather to have yet another dc meeting soon... i dont think now would be any good +marga Ganneff: we might _try_ that on IRC, if we manage to be friendly enough. +aj Sledge: yes please do +Sledge h01ger: ok, cool +bdale it has been approximately 4 hours since this meeting started. I strongly suggest everyone get food and sleep before trying to decide anything else of substance! * marga now with her DC8-candidate hat. +Sledge ok, I'll post an announcement tonight +Maulkin oh yeah @h01ger Ganneff, no. not next debconf. i dont wanna continue now. remember Tolimar? @h01ger (s mail) @Ganneff h01ger: see my comment at 00:38:12 +Maulkin ** minutes - see about 2000 lines of backlog and try and condense it. I'm going to have to do this in SPI if I run for secretary, aren't I? @Ganneff Sledge: if you want debconf-announce you need me. +aj Maulkin: yes * h01ger greps +aj meeting over, demoderate? +Sledge Ganneff: ok, cool - let's organise that later * Sledge nods aj * Maulkin nods +Sledge meeting closed Generated by irclog2html.pl 2.1 by Jeff Waugh - find it at freshmeat.net!